Thoughts on the Campolo Exchange
Over the last few weeks, we've had a lively debate on the New Man Web site. As many of you know, the debate started when I wrote an open letter to Tony Campolo questioning his stances on homosexuality and Muslims.
Campolo was kind enough to respond to the letter and a passionate online dialogue ensued. I have received multiple e-mails and more than 50 of you have commented on our blog. For the most part, the comments were insightful and constructive. Thank you for engaging in this discussion! It was heated at times, but I believe we’re all better for it.
I want to make a few final comments on Campolo’s letter. First, I disagree with Campolo that my letter was a violation of Matthew 18. The instructions of that passage are clearly defined. They are to be followed “when a brother sins against you.” That was not the case with Campolo’s statements. They were not a personal offense against me. Rather I merely wanted to challenge him to clarify—and if necessary change—his theology. Since his statements were made publicly and published in a secular newspaper I thought it was appropriate to challenge him publicly.
Second, I was grateful that he made a strong statement regarding salvation: “I have always made clear that there is no salvation apart from the grace of God given through Jesus Christ and his sacrificial work on the cross” Unfortunately, he failed to explain how he reconciles this profession with his comments about the eternal plight of Muslims that he made in his earlier interview.
On the topic of homosexuality, I’m afraid we may be at an impasse. Campolo seems resigned to believing that homosexuals cannot change. “I have strongly pointed out that sexual orientation does not normatively change even for those who have had deep spiritual experiences and who have had extensive counseling.” I completely disagree. Not only is there empirical evidence that homosexuals can change, I believe that the grace of God can uproot any sin, no matter how deeply planted it may be. Homosexuality is no exception.
Though we disagree on some important points, I regard Campolo as a brother in Christ. In fact that is part of the reason I chose to challenge him. Some saw the debate as destructive. I believe just the opposite. As men of God we build each other up when we hash out our beliefs together. Of course we should do so in love—never resorting to character assassinations and name-calling. But we must engage in rigorous dialogue, forcing each other to examine and defend our beliefs and behavior. What wounds we suffer are the wounds of a friend. I’ll take those scars any day.
Campolo was kind enough to respond to the letter and a passionate online dialogue ensued. I have received multiple e-mails and more than 50 of you have commented on our blog. For the most part, the comments were insightful and constructive. Thank you for engaging in this discussion! It was heated at times, but I believe we’re all better for it.
I want to make a few final comments on Campolo’s letter. First, I disagree with Campolo that my letter was a violation of Matthew 18. The instructions of that passage are clearly defined. They are to be followed “when a brother sins against you.” That was not the case with Campolo’s statements. They were not a personal offense against me. Rather I merely wanted to challenge him to clarify—and if necessary change—his theology. Since his statements were made publicly and published in a secular newspaper I thought it was appropriate to challenge him publicly.
Second, I was grateful that he made a strong statement regarding salvation: “I have always made clear that there is no salvation apart from the grace of God given through Jesus Christ and his sacrificial work on the cross” Unfortunately, he failed to explain how he reconciles this profession with his comments about the eternal plight of Muslims that he made in his earlier interview.
On the topic of homosexuality, I’m afraid we may be at an impasse. Campolo seems resigned to believing that homosexuals cannot change. “I have strongly pointed out that sexual orientation does not normatively change even for those who have had deep spiritual experiences and who have had extensive counseling.” I completely disagree. Not only is there empirical evidence that homosexuals can change, I believe that the grace of God can uproot any sin, no matter how deeply planted it may be. Homosexuality is no exception.
Though we disagree on some important points, I regard Campolo as a brother in Christ. In fact that is part of the reason I chose to challenge him. Some saw the debate as destructive. I believe just the opposite. As men of God we build each other up when we hash out our beliefs together. Of course we should do so in love—never resorting to character assassinations and name-calling. But we must engage in rigorous dialogue, forcing each other to examine and defend our beliefs and behavior. What wounds we suffer are the wounds of a friend. I’ll take those scars any day.
posted by Drew Dyck at 2:51 PM
15 Comments:
Drew,
Good letter!
In the second paragraph from the end you made a slight typing error.
You said, "I believe the Grace of God cannot uproot any sin..."
I don't think that's what you meant.
David Patterson
Good catch, David. Thanks for pointing that out. I changed it!
Drew
Something not addressed in this article but in a book I read by Tony years ago is his believe in a womans right to choose abortion if she so decides. He was mainly addressing the horror of being raped by ones own family member. I once to belived that it was a womans right to choose until I became born again. One day it came up in a conversation and I intended on supporting choice until a deep conviction came on my heart and showed me I was wrong. I also disagree with the other positions Tony takes. I ask has he beome so into psycology that he has lost conviction by the Holy Spirit? His arguments are well meant but there is a way that seems right unto men but the end there of is death.
Dave Walsh
GOD holds individuals answerable for sinful choice - including homosexual behavior. The Word verifies that it is, therefore, sin. (Were it to be an inborn characteristic it would bring no condemnation.)
The Word of GOD supersedes all human opinion, be it psychology, philosophy, or temporary current science.
Campolo equates humanism with the Word. Tsk tsk. No no! His spiritual growth has leveled-off.
vincit veritas
You wrote, "Not only is there empirical evidence that homosexuals can change, I believe that the grace of God can uproot any sin, no matter how deeply planted it may be. Homosexuality is no exception."
While I agree that homosexuals have changed and need to strive to do so, there's a distinction that needs to be drawn. While a person is not a thief unless they steal, a person can be a homosexual without engaging in homosexual activity.
For the homosexual who chooses to live in godly celibacy until the day that they find healing and release from that particular temptation, we need to supportive. Unless they have engaged in homosexual behavior, though, it isn't appropriate to tell them "the grace of God can uproot any sin" because there is no sin in being tempted.
I think it's the failure to draw that distinction that keeps more homosexuals from turning to the church where they would receive the support to live godly lives in the face of this particular challenge and temptation.
The biggest problem is not homosexuals turning to the church for help, but homosexuals wanting to be members, accepted for what they are, and treated like exemplary Christians.
There's help if they want to change, but should they be welcomed when they persist in living in sin? The Bible says no.
We don't see adulterers still living in adultery trying to change the church's mind that they were "born that way" and asking that we accept them as they are.
Interestingly, pedophiliacs could also say they were born that way. Should we "lovingly open our arms" and accept them into our churches if they wish to remain they way they "were born"?
I am asking pro-homosexuals this question. If we should accept pedophiliacs, then we see where the problems are. If they say we shouldn't accept pedophiliacs into our churches, then, why the double standard?
The last commentator widend the subject from Homosexuals to others sins as a whole by drawing in the example of pedophiliacs.
In Jesus time a person caught in adultery was stoned to death yet Jesus stood in the gap for Mary and reminded those ready to stone her that "He who is without sin may cast the first stone" and clearly no one was so they went away.
The bible certainly condemns homosexuality as an abomination to God, but then you should also read how God views "a Look Of Pride". As pride led to the fall of man, and for that matter Satan.
This brings us to whom Jesus would welcome into his Church and it does seem fairly clear by his actions and statements that he welcomes those who have asked forgiveness, have had their sins fogiven, and then NO LONGER continue in that sin.
If homosexuals or pedophiliacs properly repent and turn from their sin then they should be welcome. As are all of you who stand in judgemet of them (also sin).
However, does that mean that you have to forget what they have done and allow people with pedophiliac tendencies to run the Sunday school - of course not. But then neither would you put someone who has been convicted of theft or fraud in charge of the churches finances.
I know I am a sinner, I have been saved by Grace, and I know how unworthy I am to sit in the house of God, were it not for the redeeming Blood of Christ that has washed my past sins away.
There is no way that I could judge or criticise anyone who struggles with their personal temptations as how can I label my sins any better then theirs!
However, note that the operational concept to this is that you have repented and turned away from the sin you have been commiting, therefore active sinners of any kind cannot be welcomed with open arms until they have repented. However, we must also give them the opportunity to attend services where the Holy Spirit is present and can convict them of their sins. This differs from Church membership, welcoming them to social events, and adding them into the workings of the Church until such time that they have repented.
We are reminded that "when my Church will humble itself, and pray, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will heal their land". A salutory lesson to us all.
The above comment used "Mary" as the name of the woman in John 8:3. The woman is not named, and using the name Mary could be misleading to some.
We need to help others understand God's view of homosexuals. Jesus loves them just like the rest of us sinners. He wants them to repent, turn away from sin just as heterosexuals need to.
Is it enough for a homosexual to just stop having sex & repent. Yes, unless they are lusting for more. Mt 5:28 says if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. This also applies to the homosexual.
A homosexual can be healed by the Blood of Christ, & they need to repent every time they lust. This is an important step to being healed and changed forever.
I used to Lust frequently, thinking I wasn't committing adultery, it is common amongst men in our society to Gawk with lustful thoughts. It is a downward spiral.
Now when I see an attractive woman, I thank God for creating woman, life would be boring without them. Then I pray for the woman to find Christ. this keeps me in constant prayer with the Lord & has helped me build a personal relationship with Christ. Through prayer I seldom have lustful thoughts anymore. I'm still a sinner, & I am still praying.
Anything is possible through Jesus.
Thank you Lord Jesus Christ!
I struggled with alcoholism,drug & tobacco addiction, and homosexuality.
I was delivered from these evils after coming to Christ and submitting to the counsel of a godly pastor. I Corinthians 6:11 states "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
I did not remain an alcoholic who had to refrain from booze, nor a drug addict that had to refrain from drugs. I therefore am not a homosexual who needs to abstain from perverted sexual relations (gay or straight). Sex is a beautiful creation of God designed for the marriage relationship (man and woman). Satan tries to pervert the minds of all by degrading that which God created for good.
Of course, at the heart of this entire exchange between Drew and Tony and all who have responded is that of where a person stands on scripture. I have come to realize that scripture cannot be held at the same level as the Trinity. Scripture is a crapshoot as far as interpretation and application. I do not question its relevance to the Christian and his/her Christian "walk". I do however question any would follow it blindly without engaging empirical evidences that either do not receive a voice from the scriptures or are loosely made to "fit" into the scriptural puzzle. I have known homosexuals who have both tried to deny the lifestyle and undertake living under the grace of God seeking deliverance as well as those who thoroughly believe that they were born the way they are and that God "allowed" them to be born the way they are. I have known those who have embraced the homosexual lifestyle as well as Christianity. I have also witnessed homosexual men who have sought and proclaimed reception of God's forgiveness for their homosexuality and have indeed pursued and secured heterosexual relationships/marriages. Many of these men struggle minute by minute with their homosexual "wiring" throughout their new born lives and some confess that their marriages seem to lack satisfaction and significance even though they feel that they love their partners and are honoring God in these relationships. Many live fruitful Christian lives on the surface for many years but eventually fall back into a homosexual affair. These people are some of the best most responsible and hardworking role models in the local church. They simply cannot overcome their genetics. In the end, many of these folks become outcasts from the church, hurt their heterosexual partners and leave broken and totally disfunctional families because they have attempted to live contrary to the way that God made them. Scripture indeed imparts that homosexuality is an abomination to God, but what of the lack of Science both physiological and psychological at the time of those writings. Yes, I can honestly say that I believe the scripture was inspired by God but written with the hands, minds, cultural and religious backgrounds and limitations of man. Just as I see evolution's qualities in the grand plan of God's creation, I also see the growth and evolution of the scriptures and the understanding thereof as time passes and Science and History, etc. can be applied to a greater and more relevant interpretation of the Holy Scriptures applicable to today's "evolutionary" state of man. I am not implying that God is in flux. I do interject that since the Fall, man and his environment has been in a constant state of evolution with both a continual state of beauty as well as flaw. God gave us minds to think and to expand and to grow and to change. He did not wish us to be constrained as puppets on strings. He deisres us to use our giftedness and the gifts of His creation to grow and to expand upon His foundation as presented in Scripture. The hypocrisy of the church is in it's narrow mindedness and it's resistance to change and to it's staunch stance against the World and denial of it's relevance as a creation of God. We (the church) will prove insufferable in our hate for the sin of homosexuality to the detriment of the Great Commission which is to go and tell of the wonderful gospel of Jesus Christ unto salvation for ALL. I wonder how many adulterers serve in leadership roles in local churches but are not confronted because they give so much time and giftedness and MONEY to the church. Adultery is a sin even for homosexual partners within the gay community. We would agree that it is wrong, wouldn't we? I have never seen a member of a church dismissed for adultery. I have seen them tear churches apart from the inside by their choice to commit adultery. I would rather have a happy homosexual gay or lesbian couple who are productive workers and honest users of God's giftedness in my church anyday than a man or woman who breaks apart families unabated through adultery just because they are the largest contributers to the church. What if homosexuals are genetically incapable of being anything else? I sit really such a bad question? Why does church react to the homosexual more negatively than your average veryday unrepentent liar or adulterer or a person more pre-occupied with money than devoted to God? Wouldn't we be better served to open our minds and to study and to pray for God to bring understanding to our hearts and to help us preserve His church instead of working so hard to break His bride apart by being too stubborn to embrace the totality of the creation of God and the entire list of the parts that make up it's sum? I believe that God can do anything. I believe that God can indeed "cure" (forgive) a man or woman of the sin of homosexuality if it is indeed a sin. You must ask that question, is it a sin. Why? Because of what I said earlier, the many thousands of homosexuals who have sought forgiveness and healing from this sin through the church only to return to it or live horrible lies of lives that kill the spirits of their families because of living against who they really are. Does God just make these folks that way doomed to fail within his system of sin, repentence and forgiveness. Are they predestined to be denied salvation for their homosexuality? Does God send the person who has received forgiveness for the sin of alcoholism/drug addiction but whose hearts long and lust everyday for one more drink or one more snort? What do we know of heart healing? Maybe the ideas spouted from the Christian gay community that they feel "clean" of heart and righteous before God in their lifestyles is much more than drivel and self-justification. Maybe God says it is just as alright as the salvation of a lifetime alcholic who continually falls back to a drink only to ask for and feel they receive forgiveness from God and the church for it and then repeats same cycle endlessly. We are all sinners of some sort. That is a scriptural fact as well as an empirically proven condition. We simply are incapable of living without sin because we are living in an imperfect and fallen world. Who appointed us judge and jury over our peers when it comes to sin and the degree of sin. Isn't that for God to do only? If you agree with that, then how can you deny that God does indeed allow homosexuals to lead fruitful Christian lives according to their giftedness save the total intolerence and hypocrisy of folks all to willing to cast the first stone in their role as spotless judges when they would be better off to allow those folks to serve God and to go themselves and ask God to examine their own hearts and to ask forgiveness for their hate and their impartiality. Free your minds and end your hate. God has given you free will, don't be afraid to use it for good.
The church does not respond the same way to homosexuality as to other sexual sins because God considers homosexuality an abomination, something that turns his stomach. According to Romans 1 it is a shameful practice.
The Trinity is a surer doctrine than the inspiration of the Bible?
Based on what?
Without Scripture you don't have God manifest in the flesh for the salvation of mankind.
If only parts of the Scripture are THE Word of God, pray tell me, which parts?
If God is the creator of everything, and He is smart enough to design our amazing bodies, how did He mess up so bad that he made homosexual bodies not fit for each other?
Without perversion (using their bodies in ways they should NOT) they can't even get sexual release. Look at the anatomy of man and woman and you KNOW they fit. Homexuals don't
Enough said. To accept homosexuality as normal you have to deny the divine inspiration of ALL Scripture (contra 2 Timothy 3:16), and you have to deny the clear leading of your own conscience. Read Romans 1 and see what the end result of such a denial will be.
I see a lot of people trying to quote only Romans 1 when it comes to what God calls an abomination. I Timothy 1:10, Paul states: "These laws are for peoplehow are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching that come from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God." Notice what he stated first,sexual immorality. And again in Ephesians 5:3 Paul states: "Let there be no hint of sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God's people." And again in Colossians 3:5 "So put to death, the sinful earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual sin, impurity, lust, and shameful desires. Don't be greedy for the good things of this life, for that is idolatry." What I have noticed in all these quotes is two words - sexual immorality. Yes the includes homosexuality, but it also includes, lust, fornifcation, adultery, sexy outside of marriage, and pornography just to name a few. But all I have read is people judging homosexuality, without all the other sexual immoralities. Instead of bashing homsexuals and driving them further and further away from the church, shouldn't we be talking to them about the love of God just as Christ did with the woman at well?
I agree that Scripture condemns every kind of sexual immorality. The reason homosexuality is singled out is because none of the other people guilty os sexual sins try to excuse their sin by saying they were "born that way," and they surely don't try to create churches for the adulterers, or a church "where all fornicators are welcome without pressure to change."
The church wants to do for homosexuals what Jesus did for the Samaritan woman: we want to tell them they have been living in sin, and that there's a better way.
I have read, re-read, and re-re-read, Roman 1 24- 32, and no place do I find anything where God just singles out homosexuality. In those verses, especially starting in verse 24, "So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies." It also talks about worshipping the things God made, and not worshipping the Creator. Yes, Paul does talk about the sin of homosexuality, but later in that same vein, Paul writes about all the other sins that were being done. Yes, homosexuality is a sin. But should we spend all our time and energy talking about homosexuality, and leaving out all the other sexual immoralities?
Tony Campolo militantly campaigns for liberal politicans who support abortion on demand and gay rights.
Do I need to "go to my brother privately" to lead him to repentance on this issue?
First, I'd have to be convinced that he is a "brother."
It's the height of hypocisy and arrogance on the part of this man who excoriates conservative orthodox Christians every chance he gets in order to foster his socialist agenda while he ignores the shedding of innocent blood of millions of baby boys and girls.
It reminds me of the time when I wrote about my pro-life activism and I was criticized by a woman who considered herself very "conservative" and pro-life because my articles might be upsetting to all those "pro-choice Christians."
Post a Comment
Links to this post:
Create a Link
<< Home